INTERVIEWER
How would you respond, in particular to the non-believer, who asked you why Jesus matters?

ALLEN DWIGHT CALLAHAN
Wow. Jesus matters because in him, we see the story of God beating all the odds. That God will do the impossible. That's his forte. God is good at that. And that God will do that, and God will do that on our behalf when we are working with God, that God calls us to work with him. And as we do so, God will make things happen for us that sometimes we can't even believe what happened. God will do the unbelievable. Even when we can't believe it. This is why the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus is so important for Christian faith, so important to me you know traditionally and personally because it means that there is a Good Friday that's really not that good at all - where hope just can't be found. It's not that you can't see it - it's not there. It's really not there. But your incapacity to hope doesn't stop the hope. I mean it's a kind of hope beyond hope.

So in the Gospels, on the first Easter, nobody believed that he was going to beat that. Nobody believed that it was possible. Now he had been saying this, at least according to Gospel tradition, he's been saying this is going to happen - be ready for it, be prepared, we're going to go through a very rough period here. But when it happened, it was such a disastrous finish to what was such a glorious beginning that no hope, no human hope could sustain it. And so everyone's heart was broken.

But in spite of that, God did a great thing. God worked a miracle. So for people who are committed to the good things that God has given to humanity, and the backdrop of all this outrageous fortune and suffering and injustice and inhumanity on a scale in our century that we've never seen before - it's absolutely unprecedented - people may have felt like they wanted to annihilate everyone on the planet, but we never had the capacity for doing that until this century.

And now half a dozen people in the world can do it. How do you champion humanity in the face of that? Well that's impossible, but that's okay. Because we're dealing with somebody who can accommodate impossibilities, who specializes in them. That is why Jesus matters.

INTERVIEWER
Why does Jesus matter?

HUSTON SMITH
I would like to just throw out the challenge, reverse the question, I know it's illegal to do that in my circumstance, but I'd like to say who else would you like to nominate if you want a hero? Now there are some others. I think Kotama is a wonderful candidate - the Buddha is a wonderful rival candidate. But they said very much the same thing in theme. I also have a very, very lofty regard for Socrates, who also said much the same thing. But to me the question is, why not? Why not? What are the things that trip you up or trip the public.

But we're a "me" generation, we're individualistic, and we don't want to turn our lives over to anybody else. I see a lot of self indulgence, so they badmouth the people who are championing for pull up your socks, behave a little better, then take a look at how you're behaving. And there is a cultural religious world view, which was pretty much the same all over the world until the rise of modern science which has now in the eyes of our elitist culture been replaced by the scientific world view. This is not a very noble motive - in order to share up one's own point of view in any kind of context, then you denigrate the competing world view. And I think there's a good bit of that which is like static in the audio that keeps the message from coming through.

INTERVIEWER
If you were posed the question by the non/reluctant Christian, "Why does Jesus matter?", how would you respond?

FATHER RICHARD ROHR
For the non believer or the non Christian, if they could see Jesus as the quintessential human, as not a, a man coming with some big religious denominational agenda, but simply one who is saying I'll show you a way to be free, I'll show you a way not to be afraid of god, not to be afraid of yourself and not to be afraid of history - who wouldn't want to follow such a person.

You know in most of history god was someone to be afraid of. That's why every theophany in the whole bible, every time god breaks in, the first word of the angel or the, the apparition is always do not be afraid, every time. You know why? Because in all of human history when god entered history you had to be afraid, god always wanted blood, god always wanted you to, to die. This becomes a great turnaround in Jesus - it's always don't be afraid, I'm here to tell you that it's a safe universe, god is on your side,

In all of human history of human sacrifice and of animal sacrifice we had to spill blood to get to god. What we have on the cross is the turn around of all historic religion and we've seen this cross so often as Christians we don't get its, it's historical secular meaning, if you will. Suddenly on the cross, we have god spilling blood to get to us and in that saying my god, it's a safe world, god is not toxic, god is not dangerous, god is now not out after your behind. God is not cruel and punishing and blaming and vengeful.

In the risen Christ you have a figure who refuses to blame anybody, and he identifies forgiveness with his very breath. Now anybody would be attracted by such a figure - a quintessentially rich and deep and profound human being. I think if you can allow yourself to be drawn by his humanity, god will take care of it from there. I hope this doesn't sound shocking but I don't really care if you formally affiliate with Christianity. For many people that seems to stop their progress, they stop growing at that point because the journey they think is over. I would sooner have you stay on the journey. Simone Way, the wonderful French philosopher put it very well; she said "if I would have the choice between falling into the hands of Christ, (meaning joining the church) or falling into the hands of the truth, I would sooner just fall into the hands of the truth and god will take it from there".