INTERVIEWER
When Jesus talked about hell, or even when he talked about heaven and the Kingdom, most of us think "up or down". What do you think Jesus was addressing?

ALLEN DWIGHT CALLAHAN
The definition of hell and heaven in the words of Jesus is a challenge of theological interpretation. But clearly when he talked about the Kingdom, he was talking about an experience that we have in the world, in history, otherwise what's the point? You don't have to organize people for any kind of project that's going to take place on the other side of history. You just sort of wait to kind of let it happen to you.

His understanding was that human beings participate in this. And this too is a feature of ancient Israelite conviction that God wants to dwell in the midst of the people and work out a project in history with people. That God doesn't want to go it alone. Now you would think that with all the trouble it causes God to have partners, especially given his qualifications, that he would go it alone, but he doesn't.

And Israel is a part of that process, and God is insistent that the process go forward. So God draws people to himself, and this drawing is part of the attraction of Jesus' ministry. Not so much that Jesus is charismatic in some vague area sense that made women faint and all this kind of thing. But that in him, God was making an appeal to people. They had a lot of reasons not to come, but they had an invitation from God. So with all the reasons they had not to come - all the reasons that other people gave them not to come, God was giving them a very compelling reason to come.

INTERVIEWER
Jesus seems to be focused on the present and human nature seems to always be more concerned with the future and "getting to heaven".

HUSTON SMITH
This is our natural tendency if we're immature. But if we develop character along the way then the emphasis changes from give me, give me- the attitude, give me heaven, as the reward for my good deeds- to the dynamic; not what's in it for me, but what we can give to the world here and to God. Rabia - a great woman Sufi saint in Islam, put it beautifully. She said, "If I love you for the hope of heaven, please keep me out of heaven. And if I love you out of the fear of hell, please send me to hell. But if I love you for your own sake, then please admit me to your presence.

INTERVIEWER
Jesus speaks often of the kingdom, stating that the kingdom is among us. What is the significance of this statement?

FATHER RICHARD ROHR
Jesus is concerned much more about the present than the future but it is much harder to live in the present than to idealize some game of crime and punishment and that's what most denomination religion is; it's all crime and punishment - a big gigantic police system. And we priests are supposed to be the priests keeping you all in line. Jesus refuses to be a divine policeman. That is not his issue. It is not about some requirements that create a wonderful future, but it's about what's right here right now and if you get it now, you get it and who you are now, what you choose now I think Jesus is saying you will be forever.

What Jesus is talking about is living something right now - not projecting something later that's going to be happiness. God is going to give you forever what you choose to be right now. And I think if you choose life and love and freedom and forgiveness, he says, you can have it - God is going to give you what you want. If you want contentiousness, and vengeance - okay you can have it. His word for that is eternal death, it's not eternal torture it's eternal death, you just you're nothing. Love is life - evil is death. To choose evil is to choose not to exist, not to be. And he isn't threatening anybody with that. I think he's simply naming the choices, this is real, this lasts forever, this is unreal.

I used to say it this way; it's heaven all the way to heaven and it's hell all the way to hell. Now most Christians I know when you really talk to them, they believe just the opposite, they believe it's heaven all the way to hell. In other words, the people out having fun tonight, drinking and partying they're having their heaven now but we are happy to know that they are going to be burned for all eternity later. And the people who tonight are having their hell - the people like me who are supposed to be celibate and living this hard, difficult life, we're putting up with our hell now but we all know we're going to get this great bit prize later called heaven.