ALLEN DWIGHT CALLAHAN
There are various philosophies in religious traditions that say that the ego is the problem, and that we've got to get beyond the ego, neutralize it, nullify it, bring it to naught. This is not the approach in ancient Israelite tradition and those traditions to which it bequeathed its heritage. Jesus challenged his hearers to believe that God was going to take care of them. That God was already taking care of them. That God was already involved. That God was already concerned. That the very nomenclature of God that he used, referring to God as a father, talking about the love of God, the way we talk about the relationship between parents and children was to assure people who had real doubts about the love and care of God, and had really good reasons to doubt the love and care of God, and how worthy they might be, or deserving they might be of that love and care, that that was not the issue. That God's love and care was very real. And that their anxiety, their anguish, their concerns that constitute life in the world, are not just misunderstandings.

You know if we could just get to a higher level, then the hunger we feel won't be a problem. The alienation that we feel, the pain, the shame. These things are phantasms, and if we were just to achieve a higher level of consciousness then we could do away with all these things, we could go beyond all these things. The whole tradition which shapes Jesus doesn't go that way. You're in pain, that pain is real. You have shame, that shame is real. You have anxiety because you don't know where your next meal is coming from. And because it's real, God is doing something about that. Even if you don't believe it, and if you look around, there are indications that God is doing something about that.

INTERVIEWER
The great spiritual teachers and Saints have all intimated in some way that all great spirituality is about letting go. Can you comment on this assertion?

HUSTON SMITH
What one ultimately lets go of is the ego. This clamorous ego, with it's demands. Give me this, give me, give me, give me. And it can take many forms. One of them as one grows older, is time. We want more time. We are like blind men going around with our tin cups- give me five minutes, give me fifteen minutes, and so on. But of course, we know that we have to let go of time. That time, as far as our ego goes, is going to come to an end. So that's just one example of the way Socrates said that all life is a preparation for death, and that could be translated, letting go because death is the letting go of this world and every ingredient therein.

INTERVIEWER
What is it that's attracted so many to the Buddhist and Muslim faiths and are the qualities that these seekers looking for present in Christianity?

FATHER RICHARD ROHR
You know many western Christians both in Europe and North America are very attracted to Buddhism today and I've wondered why. I as a Franciscan was able to be exposed to the mystical tradition , the contemplative tradition, so Buddhism was never a need for me because I was given the same teaching inside of Christianity. But I realize that most Christians, Catholic and Protestant were never given that teaching, so if they've never had a rich inner spirituality or been taught how to pray, suddenly they find Buddhism very attractive.

I think the primary reason however is that Buddhism is absolutely up front and honest about the problem of the ego. You can't get through Buddhism 101], the first lecture will tell you your ego's in the way. What western Christianity has done is said that the shadow is the problem, the dark side of the self. What we have is most Christians attacking their shadow fruitlessly. It only goes underground it only goes into denial. We keep pretending the shadow is the problem. Jesus never says the shadow is problem; the ego is the problem. Buddhism is very clear about this. It doesn't waste any time attacking the shadow. The rejected itself is what I mean by the shadow. The inferior self, the wounded self.

Buddhism instead criticizes this self that thinks it's the center of the world, thinks it's more important than it is and by that we mean the ego. So I think Buddhism will continue to be attractive because it, it names for many people the real problem. Now I as a Christian know that Christianity said this too, but a lot of us can't hear it in Christian language anymore. When Jesus says unless the grain of wheat died it remains just a grain of wheat, he's talking about the death of the private self to enter in to the god self, the great self. So, that sounds exactly like Buddhist teaching but for some reason we can't hear it from Jesus and we can hear it from Buddha. Which I find strange.

INTERVIEWER
Is it that we can't hear it from Jesus or that it hasn't been explained to us in a way that we can hear it?